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How to distinguish between j and q
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strongneo -

Please help me, I just started learning Chinese, now I am focusing on practising pronunciation. I
hardly differentiate between the initial j and q when listening and don't know how to pronounce
them correctly.



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HashiriKata -

For j, try to say "jeep" (100 times exactly) and for q, say "cheap" (another 100 times).
Afterwards, move to the Chinese words you want to practise that start with j or q and repeat each
for 100 times. Keep doing this for 100 days and let us know how you've got on.

Good luck!










Language Guy -

Cheap? Let's also not forget the difference between "q" and "ch". I find that distinction MUCH
more difficult.










HashiriKata -



Quote:

Let's also not forget the difference between "q" and "ch". I find that distinction MUCH more
difficult

Be a little more communicative, Language Guy. Tell us something about the difference!

(Incidentally, when I say "cheap", I don't simply mean "ch". You have to follow my exact
instruction to discover the depth )

------------------
EDIT:
Language Guy, my post above was due to my misunderstanding of your meaning. I see now that your
"ch" is meant the pinyin "ch" and not the English "ch", is this correct?

If so, once "q" is already mastered, pull the tip of your tongue further back (from your front
teeth) to pronounce words starting with "ch" (curl the tip of your tongue up to touch the roof of
your mouth while producing the sound). The approximate sound in English for the Chinese "ch" is
something like the "ch" in choose, church, charge, etc. The Chinese "zh" is simply a non-aspirated
version of "ch", just as "j" is a non-aspirated version of "q".










againstwind -



Quote:

For j, try to say "jeep" (100 times exactly) and for q, say "cheap" (another 100 times)

Em...Perhaps it can work.

First of all, I wonder if you keb1717 are Japanese or you have learned Japanese. If yes, that will
be easy to explain.

If not, anyway, the most obvious difference between [j] and [q] in Chinese is that [q] is
aspirated and [j] is not.

And the difference between Chinese [q] and English [ch] is, simply speaking, when pronouncing the
former the lip is not protrudent, whereas when pronounceing the latter the lip is protrudent.

As for Chinese [q] and Chinese [ch], can you differentiate them by yourself now?

Here is my recording of Chinese [ji],[qi],[chi].
Any more question on their difference is welcome.

p.s.
Sorry I can't input the font of IPA in this forum.










leosmith -



Quote:

I hardly differentiate between the initial j and q when listening and don't know how to pronounce
them correctly.

Hi strongneo,
Welcome! I'm also a beginner. This site should answer most of your pronunciation questions:
http://www.sinosplice.com/lang/pronunciation/04/



Quote:

For j, try to say "jeep" (100 times exactly) and for q, say "cheap" (another 100 times).
Afterwards, move to the Chinese words you want to practise that start with j or q and repeat each
for 100 times. Keep doing this for 100 days and let us know how you've got on.

HashiriKata-kun, please don't mislead us beginners; we may not understand that you're joking.










HashiriKata -



Quote:

HashiriKata-kun, please don't mislead us beginners; we may not understand that you're joking.

Sorry leosmith, what makes you think that I was joking? Seriously, I do not joke when that could
mislead.

By the way, the "kun" you used after my name is not correct. Where did you learn that usage?










nephridium -

The difference between j and q is that q is an 'affricative' consonant, the other one isn't.
Affricative means that if you say the consonant in front of a candle the flame will move
noticeably from the air puff.

As for the location of the tongue, it's located for both consonants at the same position; try to
make a sound halfway between "ts" (can't think of an English word with this sound) and "tsh" (this
would be the sound in "cheap") or "ds" (as in salads) and "dsh" (as in "jeep") - that should come
close to the correct pronunciations.










Jose -



Quote:

Let's also not forget the difference between "q" and "ch". I find that distinction MUCH more
difficult.

In fact, q and ch can be regarded as two variants (allophones in phonetic jargon) of the same
sound. This is so because they are used with different vowels. In front of all Mandarin vowels
except "i" and "ü", you find "ch" and "zh". These are retroflex consonants, the first one being
aspirated and the second one unaspirated. You also have "c" and "z", which sound more like English
"ts". The distinction between "ch" and "c", and "zh" and "z", is the hallmark of elegant Mandarin
pronunciation. Many, maybe most, people in China, both in the South and the North, are unable to
make the distinction.

Now the imporant thing to bear in mind is that this elegant distinction between "cha" and "ca",
"che" and "ce", and so on completely disappears in front of "i" and "ü". In front of these vowels
you only have "qi" and "qü" (spelt "qu" in pinyin orthography just as a convention). The vowels
"i" and "ü" are high front vowels and they are articulated at a very different position within
the mouth when compared with the rest of the vowels. You can imagine these vowels as somehow
pushing the pronunciation
of the consonant so that the "c"/"ch" pair merges into "q" while the "z"/"zh" pair merges into
"j". Try saying ca and cha, and then c + i and ch + i. You will notice that it is more difficult
to keep the distinction, and if you find articulating a palatal consonant, you're probably getting
it.

Be careful here not to be tricked by the double use of "i" and "u" in pinyin. Some people assume
that "q" and "ch" have distinctive value because of bogus pairs like "chi" - "qi" "chu" - "qu"
"chuan" - "quan", and so on. But all these syllables actually have different vowels. The "i" in
"chi" is the so-called empty rhyme, while the vowel in "qi" is the normal "i" as in "yi" or "bi".
Similarly, the "chu" - "qü" "chuan" - "qüan" pairs look clearly different if we clarify the
spelling by using the actual vowel "ü".

You can see this schematically:

Elegant standard pronunciation:



Code:

Middle and back vowels front vowels

ca ce [...] cu
\
qi 'qü'
/
cha che [...] chu

Widespread non-Beijing pronunciation:


Code:

Middle and back vowels front vowels

ca ce [...] cu qi 'qü'

The same thing happens with "z"/"zh" v. "j", and with "s"/"sh" v. "x". Because of that, the use of
different letters for "j", "q", and "x" is not fundamentally necessary in transcription systems of
Chinese, and systems like Gwoyeu Romatzyh or Wade-Giles do not make this distinction. In pinyin it
is probably a legacy of bopomofo.

This is one of the points about pinyin I don't completely like. A few months ago I wrote a few
criticisms of pinyin in an older thread, where I tried to explain some conventions in pinyin that
I find misleading, and that confused me greatly when I was starting to learn Chinese. I think it
probably took me two years or more to realise that qu was actually pronounced with the lü vowel!










Language Guy -

HashiriKata, I'm glad you go the message of my post.

I'm only a beginner, and although I have training in linguistics and phonetics, I'm still no
expert at the Chinese language.

The best way I would describe the difference between the pinyin sounds 'x' and 'sh', 'j' and 'zh',
'q' and 'ch' is that the formers are shallower, performed at the front of the mouth, while the
latters are formed more near the rear.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.












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