Speak Chinese - I dont understand tones at all -

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I dont understand tones at all
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dynaemu -

I need help in the mandarin tones apartment.. I never hear them, songs, movie, when people speak,
anything.. its very weird... maybe I just dont know theyre there? Im very confused on the tones..
i just never hear them and it makes me feel odd when i try to speak chinese to someone.. anyone
have any help for me? >_<

Thanks



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mirgcire -

Hmm ... I think I have the same problem as you. Just to be sure, let me ask one question: do your
friends complain when you sing? If so, we likely suffer from the same affliction: "tone deafness".
After seeing your post I googled this and found the following link
"http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2002/jan/tonedeaf/020116.tonedeaf.html".

I am not sure how tone deaf I am, but I am rarely able to determine the tone of a word correctly.
To say it more precisely, I am correct only about 50-60% of the time. Sometimes I wonder if I
should just give up, but usually chinese people understand what I am saying.










dynaemu -

People dont complain when I sing, they like it..

Some do say im off-tune though..










Kong Junrui -

Well how long have you been learning Chinese? Of course, it's not gonna come to you really
quickly, and I too would get confused with tones early in my learning, but I'm in my third year of
studying this language and can much better identify tones in speech, though I know what you mean
about the tones seeming like they're not there... In regular language anyway. But as far as I can
tell, they're there but they come so natural that they're just kind of blended in with everything
else, kind of like how in English, you don't properly enunciate every single sound in a word in
regular speech. Sometimes words tend to be merged together but people still understand.

Or maybe it isn't like that.










imron -

Go to this page and download the files for the 4 different tones of ma (don't worry about the one
that says BPMF spelling for now). Listen to each one 20-30 times then move on to the next one and
see if you can tell the difference.

Being tone deaf has little to do with it. We use tones in English all the time, just in a
different way from the Chinese. Everytime you ask a question you typically will be changing the
tone of your sentence.

Compare for example the difference in pronunciation between the following sentences (especially
note the way you end the sentence):

He doesn't like football.

He doesn't like football?

For the second one, your intonation should rise towards the end, and by changing the tone, you are
changing slightly the meaning of what you are saying i.e. you change the sentence from a statement
to a question, or perhaps even an indication of surprise.

With Chinese tones, it's basically the same principle, except instead of working on a sentence
level, it works at a word level (or perhaps more correctly, a syllable level), and the difference
in meaning between the different tones is far greater than just changing from a statement to a
question.

If you're just beginning to learn Chinese, it is well worth spending the time to get your head
around the tones. You don't need to get them 100%, but you do need to be able to mostly
differentiate them both when you hear them and when you say them. If you don't get them right from
the beginning, then it will be close to impossible to fix them up later on.










<<恒心>> -

Sounds like you need to do some dictation (听写) practice so that you can begin to build
sound/meaning associations, that will force you to become aware of the tones. If you take a
recording of something and try to write out what you hear in characters, you'll immediately be
forced to choose which tone/character combo to represent what you heard (or what you think you
heard).

Since only one specific combination can be correct, and since the context will only go so far in
helping you to guess at which specific combinations is correct, you'll inevitably (and quickly) be
forced to make distinctions based on what you hear. With enough practice of this sort, I'd be
surprised if your awareness and accuracy in distinguishing tones didn't improve rapidly. Give it a
try!










mirgcire -

Does anyone have experience with software that can record your voice and provide visual feed back
on tone changes? I think it is possible to develop this type of software: it needs to take a whole
sentence and represent the tone changes in time and provide a play back so you can see where/when
the tone is incorrect.

One place that I have difficulty is saying 2 fourth tones followed by a first tone. For some
reason I just can't get it right ... (yet!). So this type of SW would be useful for overcoming
this challenge.










necroflux -

I give the same advice to everyone I encounter who is in the beginning stage of learning Chinese.
Do not begin learning until you can recognize the tones at least 80-90% of the time. If you start
learning words without the tones then you will develop a (delusional) habit of thinking that the
tones are unnecessary - and ask anyone on this forum who have made that mistake, ditching that
habit is a bitch.

So step 1, take a deep breath, and realize it's not that hard - you just need the right tools.

I present to you the right tool. Play this quiz over and over and over until you can ace it or
close on a regular basis. It shouldn't take long. You might go crazy in the process, but this will
be good practice for the insanity that lies ahead. Just kidding it's a blast.

As for actually speaking the tones properly, (especially in regards to sequences), I don't think
you need to be in a rush there. As long as you can recognize the tones when you hear them, the
speaking ability will come - because you ought to be able to recognize the tone of your own voice
after you speak. That actually takes a bit of skill in and of itself but it comes with practice,
as does everything. But indeed you will want to be checking yourself consistently as you speak, as
to whether or not the tones are correct. This is best done in the beginning stages with the help
of a native speaker, find/hire one at all costs.

I have found that with a good amount of discipline I have to think much less about the tones after
two years of study, so by putting that pressure on yourself at the beginning it certainly pays off.

Regarding tone deafness, I don't think the concept is related to tones as they are used in the
Chinese language. As far as I understand tone deafness, it relates to the perception of two or
more individual tones and whether or not they "match". When using tones in language, you only need
to be able to perceive relative change in pitch. If you can start singing at one note, and hear
your voice go up or down in pitch, then you have all of the tools necessary to speak and
understand Chinese. For proof just look at the Chinese people - if tone deafness does indeed make
speaking Chinese impossible, why is it that 1.5 billion people all have no problem speaking?










mirgcire -

Necroflex,

I think your advice is good, and the majority of beginners would do well to follow it, but I am
not a beginner.

It may be hard for you to comprehend but some people are actually less skilled than you when it
comes to hearing ability. Your point about the Chinese population is interesting. First of all,
your estimation of the population is off by about 200 million. And second, I think is is unlikely
that you are an expert on the percentage of Chinese that suffer from speech disorders. I also
seriously doubt you have any back ground in the area of tone deafness, speech therapy, or teaching
Chinese - but then, neither do I

I have been studying Chinese for over two years now and I am not a casual student. I study
everyday and I work hard on listening, practicing, reading, writing, etc. I have a reasonably high
vocabulary and I keep up with my class in terms of the visual language. But I have profound
difficulties hearing tones - both in my own voice and in others.

I have used the pinyin practice web site and can score okay, but not consistently. I still have a
hard time getting a score of over 80%. Also, I listen to chinesepod a lot and when Jenny
introduces new words I always try to guess the tones and often repeat several times to be sure.
However, I can only get about 60% of those correct. And no one speaks mandarin more clearly than
Jenny.

The method I use to express tones is by paying attention to which part of my body is resonating:
1st = mouth, 2nd = head, 3rd = chest, 4th = throat. It works well enough to get by. But this
method doesn't seem to be much help when I try to use some combinations of tones.

I feel pretty silly trying to make a solid case for how deaf I am, but this is the second time
this week that some has dismissed my difficulties as simply not paying enough attention. I am
going to follow up next week with a friend of mine who is a speech therapist to see if you can
provide me with any insights.

I am sure my condition is not common, and I hope that dynaemu and others can make good use of your
practical suggestions.

Now about that software that provides feedback on tones ..... ?
Has anyone out there tried such a thing?










imron -

@mirgcire - I tend to support Necroflux's point of view, and hold the same opinions about learning
tones, but at the same time am always willing to keep an open mind. I agree that sometimes it's
difficult to comprehend others having difficulty with something that comes relatively easy to
oneself, so I'm sorry if perhaps I came across as dismissive in my previous post.

However, regarding the points I made in that post, when you are speaking or listening to English
can you distinguish between questions and statements based on their tone?

For example I've attached a file of myself saying "you can't hear tones" both as a question and as
a statement. If you are listening to this can pick which is which? I ask because for me, this was
the base I used when I started learning tones and how to differentiate them i.e. I started by
analysing the way I processed tones in English and by paying attention to that I then adapted that
process to Chinese.

Anyway, such a process worked quite effectively for me, so I'd be interested in hearing your
thoughts (or prior experiences) in using such a technique.

Regarding software for tone feedback, this thread makes mention of a tool called Speech Analyzer
which looks to offer feedback you're looking for. I've not used it myself, so I can't vouch for
its effectiveness.












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